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erevine
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« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2007, 01:49:54 AM » |
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"Avada Kadavara" vs "Expelliamus" Brilliant,well done JK. I believe the whole series can be summed up with this curse and spell.
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 02:01:03 AM by erevine »
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ferdinand_the_yak
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« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2007, 05:07:22 AM » |
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Brilliant Misty, I didn't think about the leaving Privet Drive = loss of Lily's protection. Let me have a go... I'll take Kate's "points of inconsistency" The first time Voldemort tries to kill Harry (as an infant), it appears that the curse rebounds, killing Voldemort (and destroying his body), and inadvertently making Harry a horcrux. Not so much kill, as destroying his body. He was still tethered to life by his six (the horcrux created within Harry by means of Voldemort trying to kill him made the seventh). So in this situation we know why Voldemort “disappeared” – his body had gone, but his soul remained in existence thanks to his seven horcruxes. Harry survived because of the protection Lily gave him by protecting him from Voldemort. This makes sense so far. The second time (in the forest) Voldemort again tries to kill Harry; Harry isnt killed, but "dies". Voldemort also collapses, but this time keeps his body. It isnt apparent whether or not the curse rebounds, but if it had surely the other death eaters would have noticed it. My take is that the Avada Kedavra curse did not rebound because Harry made no attempt to counter it like he did later. The Elder wand, while not functioning perfectly for Voldemort, did the job and “killed” Harry, or to be more precise, killed the horcrux within Harry. It may be that the curse didn’t kill him because Harry-Elder wand connection. Voldemort collapses because even he can’t fail to notice that he only has one bit of soul left (Nagini). His body is fine because nothing has happened to it – Harry didn’t try to counter the curse. The third time (in the hall), Voldemort casts the curse, and it rebounds off Harry's spell, and kills Voldemort (but leaves his body intact). Following from the previous point, because Harry counters the spell this time around, the two spells rebound. As there are no shared wand cores in operation, there is no Priori Incantatem this time (as per GOF). The spells bounce off each other. Now why would JK explain that the reason Voldemort copped a faceful of Avada Kedavra was because that the Elder wand would not work against its master, Harry? Couldn’t it just be because the spells happened to ricochet and he was just unlucky? Or, (and this is going deep into speculation territory) could it be because the nature of the wand gave it a evil, spiteful nature that revelled in the destruction of it’s master’s enemies? I’m interested in hearing what other people have to say!  |
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Trey
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« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2007, 05:20:13 AM » |
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Slightly off topic on what we are currently debating but...
Was it ever explained (maybe in HBP, I cant remember) what the Veil was that Sirius fell through in OOTP??
I thought it would be clarified as there was so much mystery around it.
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Brilliant Snape.... once again you've put your keen and penetrating mind to the task and as usual come to the wrong conclusion!!
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blackcat20
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« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2007, 05:23:49 AM » |
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Let me have a go... I'll take Kate's "points of inconsistency"
Before anyone thinks im being difficult, Ill just point out that Im happy with the way everything worked, and to me it didnt seem inconsistent. For the exact reasons Jo mentioned above, it all made sense. Particularly the attempt on Harrys life in the forest; It was quite clear to me that voldemort destroys his own horcrux; I assumed harry survived for one or more of the following reasons: he is the master of the eldar wand, he was submitting himself to death (ie sacrifice) and/or he had all three deathly hallows united... Anyway, this guy at uni keeps debating it with me, and was after other peoples opinions-Im sure either way he still wont be satisfied!  |
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place. Spiritually, acumenically, grammatically.   |
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ferdinand_the_yak
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« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2007, 06:15:14 AM » |
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Heehee - I don't think you're being difficult Kate, you're making me think about a highly confusing plot line and it's very helpful!  |
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blackcat20
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« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2007, 06:38:51 AM » |
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I find the more I think about it, the more confused I get! I was perfectly happy to accept it at face value until my thoughts were questioned  Thanks for your answer though, youve taken my back to my original conclusion |
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place. Spiritually, acumenically, grammatically. |
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rns91294
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« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2007, 06:18:33 PM » |
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As if I wasn't confused enough, I had to come here and read all this. I am content now in thinking that Harry survived in the forest because he had all three Hallows joined, Nagini was still alive, and the wand would not work against him. I am still confused though as how Dumbledore says that because Voldemort had some of Harry's blood, it kept him alive. Is it safe to assume that this means Harry was still alive because a small part of him (his blood in Voldemort) remained? After the "19 years later", I too had more questions...like who is Headmaster now? Did George continue his joke shop in honor of Fred? I must say, for a children's book (which I don't think it is any longer), it really did have bits that you had to re-read to truly try and understand. Other than that, I loved it!!!!!! Although, I really am a mess about Fred. I woke up this morning and started to tear up again just thinking about it. I never imagined that one of the twins might die. I was a wreck with Dobby too. Now, I have a question....can we make a lit of everyone who did die? I am just curious to know the head count (not including all the unknown death eaters, obviously). Was Lavender Brown one of them? I read that part twice. At first, I thought she was saved, but then when I read it again, I noticed it said thet Greyback jumped on one of the bodies and bit. So, the second time I read that line, I thought that he had killed her before Trelawney sgtarted dropping those crystal balls on him. Oh, and when did it mention that a Muggle later came in to Magic? I must have missed that part. Thru tears, it is sometimes hard to read. Everything appears a bit blurry  And I know this is not a big deal, but when Hagrid was carried off by the Spiders, there was no mention of Fang. Do you think he died as well? Sorry for all the questions |
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 06:50:20 PM by rns91294 »
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Sharon
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« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2007, 07:38:11 PM » |
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Slightly off topic on what we are currently debating but...
Was it ever explained (maybe in HBP, I cant remember) what the Veil was that Sirius fell through in OOTP??
I thought it would be clarified as there was so much mystery around it.
I wish this had been mentioned but I suppose as JKR had said Sirius was really dead it was no longer important. I seem to remember that the Veil was an execution devise - the wizards version of the electric chair. What does make a bit more sense to me after this book is where the Veil lead to. I now believe it took Sirius to his own version of Kings Cross (where Harry met DD). The difference between Harry and Sirius though was that Harry still had a link to life (the Voldemort connection) but Sirius would have just passed 'into the light'. Was Lavender Brown one of them? My take on Lavender Brown was that she survived but was now a werewolf. |
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tialessa
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« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2007, 08:28:50 PM » |
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Now, I have a question....can we make a lit of everyone who did die? This was done on the Card Talk forum by dis68 [SPOILER] [SPOILER] [SPOILER] [SPOILER] [SPOILER] [SPOILER] [SPOILER] [SPOILER] [SPOILER] [SPOILER] [SPOILER] 1 Charity Burbage ( Professor of Muggle Studies ) 2 Hedwig 3 Mad-Eye Moody 4 Bathilda Bagshot 5 Rufus Scrimgeour ( Minister of Magic ) 6 Ted Tonks ( father of Nymphadora Tonks ) 7 Dirk Cresswell 8 Gornuk ( Goblin from Gringotts ) 9 Gregorovitch ( Wand maker ) 10 Gellert Grindelward 11 Peter Pettigrew ( Wormtail ) 12 Dobby ( Freed House Elf ) 13 Remus Lupin 13a Nymphadora Lupin ( nee Tonks ) 14 Vincent Crabbe 15 Severus Snape 16 Fred Weasley 17 Colin Creevey 18 Nagini ( Enchanted Snake / Horcrux ) 19 Antonin Dolohov ( Deatheater ) 20 Bellatrix Lestrange ( Deatheater ) 21 Lord Voldemor plus about 50 unnamed others killed in The Battle of Hogwarts |
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 08:33:43 PM by tialessa »
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It never goes smooth. How come it never goes smooth? Mal - Safe
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kbmum
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« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2007, 08:52:58 PM » |
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My take on Lavender Brown was that she survived but was now a werewolf.
The passage reads: Two bodies fell from the balcony overhead as they reached the ground, and a gray blur that Harry took for an animal sped four-legged across the hall to sink its teeth into one of the fallen.
"NO!" shrieked Hermione, and with a deafening blast from her wand, Fenrir Greyback was thrown backward from the feebly stirring body of Lavender Brown.I took this to mean that Greyback ran to Lavender in order to bite her, but hadn't actually done so yet. I think, IMHO, that if he'd bit her, the sentence would have read, "...an animal sped four-legged across the hall and sunk its teeth into one of the fallen." The way JK wrote the sentence, it could go either way. |
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ferdinand_the_yak
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« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2007, 11:18:14 PM » |
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So the old man in the castle WAS Grindlewald? I was confused because of one line he said "I never really had it" (the Elder wand).
And I'm pretty certain Lavender wasn't bitten, I interpreted it like Cindy did
Must reread!
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Bitsy
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« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2007, 03:40:55 AM » |
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Hermione stopped Greyback before he could reach Lavender, so she should be fine. She was injured, but I was under the impression that she survived.
Yes, the man in the castle was Grindelwald.
I saw in an interview with JK that there is a new Headmaster of Hogwarts after 19 years (taking over for Minerva). She said that this identity will be revealed in the Encyclopedia she is going to write.
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Trey
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« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2007, 03:55:19 AM » |
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So the old man in the castle WAS Grindlewald? I was confused because of one line he said "I never really had it" (the Elder wand).
I think Dumbledore or someone at the end explained that Grindewald did have the wand, he just lied to Voldemort so he wouldnt know where the wand was. Im sure it was DD explaining it to harry, that he was surprised that he didnt give the wand up so easily.... |
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Brilliant Snape.... once again you've put your keen and penetrating mind to the task and as usual come to the wrong conclusion!!
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Misty
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« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2007, 01:20:50 PM » |
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Yes, I remember Harry saying that Grindelwald lied to Voldemort "at the end", and Dumbledore saying he had heard that Grindelwald had felt remorse in prison, and maybe that was his last bit to keep Voldemort from the wand, and Harry suggests that maybe he wanted to keep Voldemort from violating Dumbledore's tomb. This make Dumbledore tear up a bit, I suppose he was remembering his friend, even though they turned out differently, he was thinking there was good in even Grindelwald, unlike Voldemort, who was totally unredeemable.
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Sharon
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« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2007, 07:21:33 PM » |
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I am still wading my way through OotP again and have just read Snapes worst memory. When Harry speaks to Sirius and Lupin in the fire they say that James and Snape hated each other at their first meeting. I am now wondering if the reason James hated Snape so much was partly to do with jealousy over his relationship with Lily. Yes James hated the Dark Arts and Snape was certainly into those but he was also on good terms with Lily at a point in their lives where James fancied her rotten but she didn't like him.
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Nienna
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« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2007, 07:42:11 PM » |
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I all harks back to the power of love or perhaps I should say 'obsessive love' that Dumbledore was at such pains to make Harry appreciate the true meaning of.
I'm sure you're right Sharon - teenage love had everything to do with how Lily, James and Snape developed as people and their interactions with each other shaped the destinies of many long after Voldemort intervened ...
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Morningangel-Iola
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« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2007, 10:05:53 PM » |
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Was wondering today as I was watching Ootp today and knowing about Snapes feelings if the whole world would have been different if he hadn't of hung out with the wrong people and called her a M*dblood.
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Misty
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« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2007, 03:30:20 PM » |
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Didn't we see their first meeting in Hallows? They are all talking about being sorted ? Surely that was it. Seems James was pretty much ignoring Lily at the beginning when Snape comes in. Maybe a bit later his loathing of Snape had to do with Lily, and the power of obsessive love we heard about had everything to do with Snape hating James.
Anyway, it was cool to go back to the beginning. How weird would it be if you could be in the memory of the first time your parents ever laid eyes on each other?
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erevine
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« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2007, 07:30:03 PM » |
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The small maimed creature under the chair at kings cross, after voldemort tried to kill harry in the forest, was, i think that part of harry's soul that was lost when voldemort used harry's blood to rebirth himself. i think it was supposed to be there with dumbledore who was in fact dead and perhaps with the dead part of harry's soul. what do you think.
dave
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« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 04:00:17 PM by erevine »
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