The Golden Compass

[Guest]

[Kelly]

I generally go to Snopes.com to find out more about rumours I've heard.  I was suprised to find out what they say about The Golden Compass and it's author.   
I'm in no way saying that you should'nt see the movies or read the books.  That's totally up to the individual. 
I also don't want to start a thread about the good or bad of organized religion.  What you believe is your own business.  I don't feel the need to convince you of mine, please don't feel the need to convince me of yours.
I'm posting the link stricktly for information purposes.  Everyone is entitled to make up thier own minds. 
The blue box at the beginning are simply emails people have written to Snopes.com.  The part on the white is Snopes.com response.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp

[HPfamily]

Thanks for posting Kelly!!! I had NO idea!!!!!! 

[Bitsy]

This is absolutely shocking...perhaps disturbing is a better word. I had absolutely no idea. I've never read the books, so I cannot speak to their content or meaning. The trailers to the film appear quite benign, which, I suppose, is fitting with the article. I'm really floored right now.

[allender]

It's also interesting to think on what it means about the people who vote for the Carnegie Medal for Children's Literature ...

Didn't J.R.R. Tolkien have some heated discussions about C.S. Lewis' anti-religion opinions, when Lewis was younger? There have been a huge number of cases where the public has embraced a theme in a book or book series, and that theme was the opposite of what the authors said they intended.

This one will be interesting to watch. Kelly, I'm cluing in some of the Church groups I know who have met to discuss the Christian themes of the Harry Potter universe. 

[Kelly]

Didn't J.R.R. Tolkien have some heated discussions about C.S. Lewis' anti-religion opinions, when Lewis was younger?

Your absolutely right.  I believe C.S. Lewis became a Christian after his many talks with J.R.R. Tolkien.  I also remember something about Tolkien not particularly liking the Narnia series because he thought the Christian themes were too obvious.

[ferdinand_the_yak]

I recently read the "His Dark Materials" trilogy. I loved it and thought it was very well written. I've read quite a few fantasy novels, so it wasn't a big step up from Harry Potter (those of you that read fantasy novels may sometimes get blank stares from others when you start talking about "daemons" etc

The anti-religion element is definitely there. When I was reading it, I kept thinking "how the hell with THIS be allowed past the censors?" But the movie will undoubtably be a very dilute version of the book given the preiviews for it.

One point - why must another English novel have its title changed AGAIN for American audiences? (the actual name of the book is "Northern Lights", not "The Golden Compass")

And I don't think Nicole Kidman is pretty enough to be Mrs Coulter either

[allender]

A lot of what's called "religiously influenced" literature could just as easily have been called anti-religion. I read Chronicles of Narnia, and didn't see all that much influence until later parts of the series, and then I could have been convinced that the themes were parody or satire.

As a science fiction fan, I've seen loads of stories that were clearly anti-religion, but usually the author or TV writer wasn't outspoken about it in interviews. Maybe it's expected in SF and a bit more unusual in fantasy writing, regardless of what some of the book-banners have imagined.

[allender]

Well, I've now read the first book. And regardless of what the author may say, I don't see anything that's particularly "anti" any particular religion.

*** WARNING OF POSSIBLE "THEME" SPOILERS, BUT NOT FOR THE PLOT ***

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What we have here is a "parallel universe" story, and in fact that's part of the whole concept for the story. The "Church" doesn't look very good, but this was a parallel Church that evolved after Pope Martin Luther moved the Vatican to Geneva long ago, and forms of the Inquisition survived into modern day. The fact that people who have followed any specific religion haven't always been saints, and that government or social clans can seek power, isn't news. If you're making social comments in fiction, it's easier to make your point if you show a society that has some overlap with the society or history the readers are familiar with.

One thing I thought was delightful was the fact that there were numerous scholars who were engaged in the field of "Experimental Theology."

I puzzle a bit about this series being called "children's" books, other than fantasy fiction is typically associated with the young, while I suppose that world history and romance and detective fiction is supposed to be more suitable for adults. The language is rather dense in places, reminiscent of Victorian speech. And there's plenty of violence, drug use, gang killings, adultery, and so forth.

So I can see where they could make a PG movie out of the adventure, as a parent I wouldn't aim kids at the book unless they were at least mid-teens and/or fairly sophisticated. This ain't Goosebumps level.

[Rich With Cards]

Well I am reading Northern Lights now and a really enjoying the book, I am christian but not necisarily a practicing christian ie I dont go to church but do have a faith and pray regularly. I agree with Jeff I would not endorse this to be read by children as it is quite graphic in parts and a lot more shocking and scary than Harry potter. I cant really comment on the religious undertones of this book but upon reading this article have been a little concerned for the real underlying meanings of the story especially after the authors comments on "Killing God"
I will continue to read the trilogy keeping within the contexts of the book and its story but I do find it concerning that the books may have an alterior motive to impose anti religious views especially on the minds of children.

[allender]

I cant really comment on the religious undertones of this book but upon reading this article have been a little concerned for the real underlying meanings of the story especially after the authors comments on "Killing God"

I will continue to read the trilogy keeping within the contexts of the book and its story but I do find it concerning that the books may have an alterior motive to impose anti religious views especially on the minds of children.

Of course, you might say that about a lot of speculative fiction. Many of the most prominent science fiction authors may have called themselves atheists, but I think the analogy is closer to humanists. "Fighting against the big conspiracy" is fascinating, whether it's a secret government agency, Freemason secrecy, Roswell cover-ups, Rimbaldi artifacts, Nostradamus, or a fictional Church that has the same power that you saw in Europe centuries ago in our universe. Except for this author's statements that he had a hidden agenda, I don't see more proselytizing than you'd see in Star Trek or privately from Gene Roddenberry. They teach "Who Mourns for Adonais" in college religion classes.

"Killing God" might be suggested as a motivation for one of the characters later in the series, but that character isn't portrayed as sympathetic. If the Dark Materials trilogy is specifically propounding science over religion, its pursuit of "science" looks like amazingly like the studies of the Jedi Council. After a bit of thought I can find a parallel for every major character in the Star Wars pantheon. Which makes it all seem more thought-provoking than inSidious.

Of course, when I finish all three books I might change my mind. With Chronicles of Narnia, I didn't feel I was being whacked on the head by theology until the very end.

[LikORish-Spider]

I generally go to Snopes.com to find out more about rumours I've heard.  I was suprised to find out what they say about The Golden Compass and it's author.   
I'm in no way saying that you should'nt see the movies or read the books.  That's totally up to the individual. 
I also don't want to start a thread about the good or bad of organized religion.  What you believe is your own business.  I don't feel the need to convince you of mine, please don't feel the need to convince me of yours.
I'm posting the link stricktly for information purposes.  Everyone is entitled to make up thier own minds. 
The blue box at the beginning are simply emails people have written to Snopes.com.  The part on the white is Snopes.com response.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp

Well said. But don't forget that there are a lot of non-thinking "Sheeple" out there.
As far as the "what they say about The Golden Compass and it's author..." here's a quote for them:
“Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, and small minds talk about people.",  Eleanor Roosevelt

[Kelly]

That might be a valid argument, but we're not talking about speculative fiction in general.  The author of The Dark Materials trilogy specifically said "My books are about killing God", not that it might be a motivation for one of his characters, or that it's a fight against conspiracy.  Instead of coming up with a theory of my own, I'll just take the authors word for it.

I admit that I haven't read all the Narnia books, but I thought "The Magicians Nephew" was full of Christian references.  That one is listed first in my series, but maybe it's the last one in the series you read.  It's a bit hazy since I read it last time a couple of years ago, but I remember parallels to The creation, The Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, Satans fall, probably a bunch of others that I can't remember off the top of my head.  I don't recall any in "The Horse and His Boy" though.

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Interesting points all round. As Jeff said, the language used in “His Dark Materials” is far more sophisticated than in Harry Potter and the Narnia series, so I too am not sure why they have been labelled “children’s books”. I would think that the targeted age groups would be at least 14-15+. Harry Potter and Narnia I would say could be aimed at 8+

Assuming that the target audiences are rather different, I think Pullman’s references to “killing God” are made to an audience with considerably more sophisticated reasoning and judgment abilities than the younger Potter/Narnia readers. Given that older kids have likely formed their own opinions on their religious beliefs (or lack of!), I think that the fact the HDM makes many anti-religious sentiments would create less impact on these kids than, say, 8 year olds. So unless you are easily swayed by what you see and hear, I really don’t think it’s that much of an issue. However, I believe that many religions don’t think much of people’s ability to think objectively, and assume people take a “sheep” (follower) or monkey (i.e. monkey see, monkey do) mentality. I think this is quite insulting really. If your faith is strong enough, a novel shouldn’t be able to change the way you feel towards your faith. If it does, then you should be questioning the strength of your faith, not the novel.

I read the Narnia series when I was 7-8. I certainly didn’t relate most (if any) of it to Christianity. I just enjoyed them for what they were (and still are!) – a great read. Now it all seems rather obvious – Aslan and the stone table = Jesus and the Cross etc, but I don’t think most kids that age actually read the books and make the connection between them and religion.

For Jeff and anyone else who is reading the HDM series – wait until you read about what Pullman says about angels!

[allender]

Kelly, Narnia was written outside the current recommended reading sequence. "Magician's Nephew" was a prequel. The "end" in my mind was Aslan's end, and there the allegory was prominent.

It was the offline statements by Pullman that tweaked my attention in the whole affair, and it's interesting to note all of the other cases where an author thought he was making a statement, and the reading public took something completely different away from it. If His Dark Materials is unkind to some parts of organized religion, it's just as unkind to organized science. I learn that some Angels might be bad, and that some Witches might be good. Some people were offended by Lewis' depiction of a messiah as a big lion.

If there's really an exploration of religion in the works, I don't see a consistent attack on anything that's 100% familiar to my religion. Few Christians today long for a return of the Inquisition. Are armored bears supposed to represent Crusaders? My take is that the author wrote a coming-of-age fantasy story that involves exploring "the nature of the soul." It's been done before, but his treatment is new and clever. That could be relevant to all religions and non-religions. The books have more of a science fiction look-and-feel than most fantasy series.

[Kelly]

However, I believe that many religions don’t think much of people’s ability to think objectively, and assume people take a “sheep” (follower) or monkey (i.e. monkey see, monkey do) mentality. I think this is quite insulting really. If your faith is strong enough, a novel shouldn't’t be able to change the way you feel towards your faith. If it does, then you should be questioning the strength of your faith, not the novel.

I agree in part, but I don't think anyones faith should be questioned as weak because they choose not to read or see certain things.  Because I don't view porn, does that mean it's because my commitment to my husband is weak and I couldn't handle it?  No, It just means that I don't want that in my life.  If Pullman hadn't specifically admitted what the underlaying purpose of his books were, I'm sure I would read them and take my own meaning from them.  Since he admitted his intention, I really can't look at the books any other way now.  There are plenty of things in everyones life that they choose not to do, not to view, or not to read.  But when someone admits that they choose not to because of their faith, it's more often viewed as close mindedness instead of simply a personal choice.

[ferdinand_the_yak]

I can see how some people may boycott a book or movie because it goes against their religious beliefs. Fair enough. Its only when people start slagging off the book/movie to others that I get annoyed. People should be allowed to make their own decisions about what they read or watch.

What I am trying to say Kelly, is that people should be able to make their own decisions, but not foist these decisions onto others.

Sorry if I offended you... it wasn't intentional! Its something I have debated many times, and something I feel very strongly about.

[Kelly]

What I am trying to say Kelly, is that people should be able to make their own decisions, but not foist these decisions onto others.

Sorry if I offended you... it wasn't intentional! Its something I have debated many times, and something I feel very strongly about.

It's all in my first post. 

 
I'm in no way saying that you should'nt see the movies or read the books.  That's totally up to the individual. 
I'm posting the link stricktly for information purposes.  Everyone is entitled to make up thier own minds. 

[ferdinand_the_yak]

LOL... we is still friends then

Glad to hear that we can have some healthy debate on here!

[Rich With Cards]

Just as an update I have just read the chapter The Lost boy, wow that was powerful when I got to the last paragraph in the chapter I didnt want to read it but did eventually wasnt as bad as I was expecting but so well written.
I think people will interpret different aspects in their own way and agree my I will never listen to something or read a book which will change my faith, my opinion is these books are extremely engaging and should be read I cant wait to finish the three books to see waht happens and then I think I will base my own opinions on the strength of the message.
Great discussion though guys. 

[Kelly]

LOL... we is still friends then

Glad to hear that we can have some healthy debate on here!

Word, girlfriend!